[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":-1},["ShallowReactive",2],{"sanity-ASEKa0AtnEm6GzWhxX2Npdp8SKK6Fj1sXI6-qrjw7y8":3,"sanity-wUG7kc7_6TX5zJQArFu1I1x_86mt9brkcp0MgAvPwjI":1183},{"data":4,"sourceMap":-1},{"latestPodcast":5,"latestReleases":14,"post":39,"recent":1158},[6],{"_id":7,"publishedAt":8,"slug":9,"sponsored":12,"title":13},"a3ba3491-6a1b-4c84-9026-96b44fd07081","2026-08-21T07:40:00.000Z",{"_type":10,"current":11},"slug","get-rid-of-your-captcha-the-future-of-the-web-is-bots",null,"Get rid of your CAPTCHA, the future of the web is bots",[15,21,27,33],{"_id":16,"publishedAt":17,"slug":18,"title":20},"adcf1bca-3295-4ac5-9b3c-23f337974190","2026-07-30T15:10:00.000Z",{"_type":10,"current":19},"introducing-stack-internal-new-platform-experience","Your trusted knowledge layer: Introducing Stack Internal's new platform experience",{"_id":22,"publishedAt":23,"slug":24,"title":26},"eb5b66eb-9410-4329-83bb-22bbff39402a","2026-04-28T13:00:00.000Z",{"_type":10,"current":25},"turn-scattered-knowledge-into-trusted-intelligence","Turning scattered knowledge into trusted intelligence: Stack Internal 2026.3",{"_id":28,"publishedAt":29,"slug":30,"title":32},"369c2401-b62e-4a37-8ff8-bf603023ecad","2026-03-02T15:03:00.988Z",{"_type":10,"current":31},"what-s-new-at-stack-overflow-march-2026","What’s new at Stack Overflow: March 2026",{"_id":34,"publishedAt":35,"slug":36,"title":38},"5e9053a4-07ea-447c-91ea-29e0b6228537","2026-02-02T15:00:00.000Z",{"_type":10,"current":37},"what-s-new-at-stack-overflow-february-2026","What’s new at Stack Overflow: February 2026",{"_createdAt":40,"_id":41,"_rev":42,"_system":43,"_type":47,"_updatedAt":48,"author":49,"body":66,"comments":1081,"dateUrl":1082,"excerpt":1083,"image":1084,"product":12,"publishedAt":1088,"slug":1089,"sponsored":12,"tags":1091,"title":1157,"visible":1081},"2026-08-19T17:40:57Z","d2b820a1-7519-4add-a54b-f676f2be8910","LktPcWwbO7wttTo5ypyfrk",{"base":44},{"id":45,"rev":46},"drafts.d2b820a1-7519-4add-a54b-f676f2be8910","86c0bf08-a54d-4c8c-9ebe-90c72cf70329","blogPost","2026-08-21T04:00:03Z",[50],{"_createdAt":51,"_id":52,"_rev":53,"_type":54,"_updatedAt":55,"avatar":56,"employee":61,"name":62,"role":63,"slug":64},"2023-05-23T16:27:18Z","wp-author-295","3Bta4LYddh6s1g3ALChVvb","blogAuthor","2025-05-09T17:21:54Z",{"_type":57,"asset":58},"image",{"_ref":59,"_type":60},"image-d670f8093b43e483a52ba692d929578633f70eb5-1024x1024-jpg","reference","current","Eira May","B2B Editor",{"current":65},"emay",[67,71,82,90,100,108,116,124,132,152,169,177,185,193,201,209,217,224,231,239,246,254,262,269,276,284,291,298,306,314,321,328,336,343,350,358,366,373,380,388,395,402,410,418,425,432,440,447,454,462,469,476,484,491,498,506,513,520,528,535,542,550,557,564,572,579,586,594,602,609,616,624,631,638,646,654,661,668,676,683,690,697,704,711,719,726,733,741,748,755,763,770,777,785,792,799,807,814,821,829,837,844,851,859,866,873,881,889,896,903,911,918,925,933,941,948,955,963,970,977,985,992,999,1007,1014,1021,1029,1037,1044,1051,1059,1066,1073],{"_key":68,"_type":69,"markDefs":12,"url":70},"6c56d62768ca","embed","https:\u002F\u002Fyoutu.be\u002FM8xLmdWVPfo",{"_key":72,"_type":73,"children":74,"markDefs":80,"style":81},"cacef05ad1a8","block",[75],{"_key":76,"_type":77,"marks":78,"text":79},"9b11c12b10c5","span",[],"In this episode, Eira May and Stack Overflow Director of Platform Engineering Peter O'Connor talk with Andi Gutmans about the throughline between democratizing web development with PHP and democratizing software development with agents today. Andi makes the case that every individual contributor is becoming “a team lead of agents” and walks through how that reshapes code review, interviewing, and the balance of human versus agent judgment. He also explains why he thinks the biggest bottleneck left isn't the models, but the challenge of getting an organization's data into a state where agents can actually reason over it.",[],"normal",{"_key":83,"_type":73,"children":84,"markDefs":89,"style":81},"d22150dc72d8",[85],{"_key":86,"_type":77,"marks":87,"text":88},"dfa3d620a2b9",[],"The discussion also:",[],{"_key":91,"_type":73,"children":92,"level":97,"listItem":98,"markDefs":99,"style":81},"6bc1ade4196b",[93],{"_key":94,"_type":77,"marks":95,"text":96},"4d80c5900638",[],"Covers how Google is changing its own interview process to evaluate how candidates reason with and guide agents, rather than how well they can hand-code a solution alone.",1,"bullet",[],{"_key":101,"_type":73,"children":102,"level":97,"listItem":98,"markDefs":107,"style":81},"a7ba3ccce099",[103],{"_key":104,"_type":77,"marks":105,"text":106},"3945a212bdcb",[],"Explores the \"human in the loop, agent in the loop, agent on the loop\" framework for deciding where review actually needs to happen — and why that's fundamentally a risk-management question, not a trust-in-AI question.",[],{"_key":109,"_type":73,"children":110,"level":97,"listItem":98,"markDefs":115,"style":81},"011785a74571",[111],{"_key":112,"_type":77,"marks":113,"text":114},"aa5edcd76695",[],"Uses the Waymo safety-data-versus-perception gap as an analogy for why organizations (and individuals) sometimes resist agent autonomy even when the numbers favor it.",[],{"_key":117,"_type":73,"children":118,"level":97,"listItem":98,"markDefs":123,"style":81},"448707fa042b",[119],{"_key":120,"_type":77,"marks":121,"text":122},"6eea0d36f5c3",[],"Introduces Google's \"borderless lakehouse\" concept and the shift from human data stewardship to agent-driven ontology building.",[],{"_key":125,"_type":73,"children":126,"markDefs":131,"style":81},"eabea69b4587",[127],{"_key":128,"_type":77,"marks":129,"text":130},"f03721e6ac5e",[],"Notes:",[],{"_key":133,"_type":73,"children":134,"level":97,"listItem":98,"markDefs":148,"style":81},"c6fc323cd139",[135,139,144],{"_key":136,"_type":77,"marks":137,"text":138},"f8bf135efe8f",[],"Connect with Andi Gutmans on ",{"_key":140,"_type":77,"marks":141,"text":143},"59565c99437c",[142],"90dd50b703c1","LinkedIn",{"_key":145,"_type":77,"marks":146,"text":147},"3526140f08ce",[],".",[149],{"_key":142,"_type":150,"href":151,"reference":12},"link","https:\u002F\u002Fwww.linkedin.com\u002Fin\u002Fandigutmans",{"_key":153,"_type":73,"children":154,"level":97,"listItem":98,"markDefs":166,"style":81},"5cd27d091c07",[155,159,163],{"_key":156,"_type":77,"marks":157,"text":158},"1e3ce259ac6f",[],"Connect with Peter O'Connor on ",{"_key":160,"_type":77,"marks":161,"text":143},"79161a236302",[162],"fd20d0e26a76",{"_key":164,"_type":77,"marks":165,"text":147},"ae0119f0dd5b",[],[167],{"_key":162,"_type":150,"href":168,"reference":12},"http:\u002F\u002Flinkedin.com\u002Fin\u002Foconnorpeterk",{"_key":170,"_type":73,"children":171,"markDefs":176,"style":81},"cf385d0d2fe8",[172],{"_key":173,"_type":77,"marks":174,"text":175},"51a263c4e194",[],"TRANSCRIPT",[],{"_key":178,"_type":73,"children":179,"markDefs":184,"style":81},"dd4b98ca186a",[180],{"_key":181,"_type":77,"marks":182,"text":183},"f05ab800b25e",[],"Eira May:",[],{"_key":186,"_type":73,"children":187,"markDefs":192,"style":81},"d1966f07967f",[188],{"_key":189,"_type":77,"marks":190,"text":191},"9f8ee9873da5",[],"Hello, and welcome to Leaders of Code. This is a segment on the Stack Overflow Podcast where we get senior engineering leaders together and talk about the work they're doing, how they go about building their teams, and the biggest challenges they're dealing with right now. My name is Eira May, and I am the B2B editor at Stack Overflow. I'm here with my colleague, Peter O'Connor, who is director of platform engineering here at Stack. Hi, Peter.",[],{"_key":194,"_type":73,"children":195,"markDefs":200,"style":81},"15ee022d0a05",[196],{"_key":197,"_type":77,"marks":198,"text":199},"98e4b8077c34",[],"",[],{"_key":202,"_type":73,"children":203,"markDefs":208,"style":81},"dee1f4ea740e",[204],{"_key":205,"_type":77,"marks":206,"text":207},"3adf4e70fc0b",[],"Peter O'Connor:",[],{"_key":210,"_type":73,"children":211,"markDefs":216,"style":81},"95efa6d3006f",[212],{"_key":213,"_type":77,"marks":214,"text":215},"12d1d4d2cc73",[],"Hello, how's it going?",[],{"_key":218,"_type":73,"children":219,"markDefs":223,"style":81},"aa9bc3e8408a",[220],{"_key":221,"_type":77,"marks":222,"text":199},"5ab96dae7b2d",[],[],{"_key":225,"_type":73,"children":226,"markDefs":230,"style":81},"b5aa43790fdc",[227],{"_key":228,"_type":77,"marks":229,"text":183},"b7e924cf8828",[],[],{"_key":232,"_type":73,"children":233,"markDefs":238,"style":81},"7d3a9f9d41fb",[234],{"_key":235,"_type":77,"marks":236,"text":237},"856d315c8d23",[],"It's going really well. Pretty good for a Monday. Today we have a guest I'm really excited about. We're talking with Andi Gutmans, who is head of Agentic Data Cloud at Google, and Andi is one of the creators behind PHP 3, I think was a college extra credit project, the way I heard it, and now it turns out it's the Bedrock of web development. Andi, welcome to the show.",[],{"_key":240,"_type":73,"children":241,"markDefs":245,"style":81},"6c80d211144b",[242],{"_key":243,"_type":77,"marks":244,"text":199},"a36b681a4967",[],[],{"_key":247,"_type":73,"children":248,"markDefs":253,"style":81},"019de1baf7b5",[249],{"_key":250,"_type":77,"marks":251,"text":252},"4eae88ac8786",[],"Andi Gutmans:",[],{"_key":255,"_type":73,"children":256,"markDefs":261,"style":81},"5f54d71bc215",[257],{"_key":258,"_type":77,"marks":259,"text":260},"afb6cee1ad39",[],"Hey there. Thanks for having me.",[],{"_key":263,"_type":73,"children":264,"markDefs":268,"style":81},"6992d027af4d",[265],{"_key":266,"_type":77,"marks":267,"text":199},"8485b12419c0",[],[],{"_key":270,"_type":73,"children":271,"markDefs":275,"style":81},"8704e0a4783d",[272],{"_key":273,"_type":77,"marks":274,"text":183},"dd5ee9374ea9",[],[],{"_key":277,"_type":73,"children":278,"markDefs":283,"style":81},"e81c381f61c5",[279],{"_key":280,"_type":77,"marks":281,"text":282},"0f6f460297a2",[],"Yeah, thank you so much for joining. I wanted to start with a question for you, Andi, and then I'll let you and Peter kind of take it from here. You helped build tools that made the whole just write code and ship it kind of possible for a generation of web developers. So I'm wondering, how does the shift to agent scale feel from the perspective that you're coming from, the experiences that you've had? Does that feel like a huge change? Does it feel more like a natural progression?",[],{"_key":285,"_type":73,"children":286,"markDefs":290,"style":81},"d0accbcb591b",[287],{"_key":288,"_type":77,"marks":289,"text":199},"66174d891c22",[],[],{"_key":292,"_type":73,"children":293,"markDefs":297,"style":81},"88c53dd9add4",[294],{"_key":295,"_type":77,"marks":296,"text":252},"8bd4b8b04358",[],[],{"_key":299,"_type":73,"children":300,"markDefs":305,"style":81},"e63d6265d3ac",[301],{"_key":302,"_type":77,"marks":303,"text":304},"0e38e921eb7d",[],"To me it feels more like a natural progression. So I think one of the things that was really exciting back in the day when we worked on PHP is we really democratized web development. And actually one of the things that was really impactful is you didn't have to be a computer science graduate to actually use PHP to build a website. So as long as you were a bit technically astute, you could actually build websites. I even had, throughout my career, folks like doctors telling me like, \"Oh, I used your language and I built a website for my office,\" and so on and so forth. And so I think that was a really important time when we made web development accessible to anyone, not only computer science graduates. I think you can think about this moment in a very similar vein where agents are actually enabling lots of practitioners to drive outcomes that are remarkable.",[],{"_key":307,"_type":73,"children":308,"markDefs":313,"style":81},"81ef1cbf5e99",[309],{"_key":310,"_type":77,"marks":311,"text":312},"8a682e3d3993",[],"My sister, she's not technical, she's a lawyer by degree, but she's been building websites with Lovable as an example, and amazing websites. So you can almost think about this, this is like PHP, but way, way better on pretty much every dimension. And then I think the other piece, the other dimension that really matters is the trust and the security side where I think with agentic development, the best practices can actually be now driven by agents. Where back in my day, one of the issues you had in having non-computer science graduates building websites is they build insecure websites or lots of bad code out there. So I think there's this whole new step up we have right now that is really exciting.",[],{"_key":315,"_type":73,"children":316,"markDefs":320,"style":81},"1acc512c31ad",[317],{"_key":318,"_type":77,"marks":319,"text":199},"bec924faefa9",[],[],{"_key":322,"_type":73,"children":323,"markDefs":327,"style":81},"54e0e4924a36",[324],{"_key":325,"_type":77,"marks":326,"text":207},"002df10f9e82",[],[],{"_key":329,"_type":73,"children":330,"markDefs":335,"style":81},"9e77bf51e9f4",[331],{"_key":332,"_type":77,"marks":333,"text":334},"dbcb614306b7",[],"Interesting. So I come from the platform engineering point of view, Andi, and it's building tools for those developers. So their lives are even easier. I'm trying to think about when we try to make it easier for them, what are some of the principles when you're thinking about how we think about AI and how to guide it properly and get people to use those tools properly? Do you have certain guardrails or advice that you're thinking about like, \"Hey, if you want to do this right, here's some patterns to follow.\" How do you think about that?",[],{"_key":337,"_type":73,"children":338,"markDefs":342,"style":81},"5bd7237844df",[339],{"_key":340,"_type":77,"marks":341,"text":199},"6c831effc2c8",[],[],{"_key":344,"_type":73,"children":345,"markDefs":349,"style":81},"1d5d463b2427",[346],{"_key":347,"_type":77,"marks":348,"text":252},"f8162cef66dd",[],[],{"_key":351,"_type":73,"children":352,"markDefs":357,"style":81},"bfa53a3e7579",[353],{"_key":354,"_type":77,"marks":355,"text":356},"03588553f5b0",[],"Yeah, no, that's a great question. Look, I think the same things matter when you're developing with AI as when you're not developing. There is are you delivering the right level of trust? So are you getting to the right outcomes? It's secure, it's governed. All these things matter just as much, if not more as before. That cost matters a lot, making sure it's easy to use. So I would say that dimensions are probably very, very similar in manner.",[],{"_key":359,"_type":73,"children":360,"markDefs":365,"style":81},"3fe86873272e",[361],{"_key":362,"_type":77,"marks":363,"text":364},"972b2174c2e5",[],"But the change right now is agents can do so much work autonomously that as we think about the guardrails and how we make sure that we are getting to those right outcomes in the right way, we have to approach that a bit differently. But I think it is still the same kind of fundamental things that actually matter. This is where making sure that you have the right data to activate these agents, that you have the right decision-making around risk-taking on when is it human in the loop? When is it agent in the loop? When is it agent on the loop? You kind of have to make decisions on how you want to operate, but that's actually not that different from engineering decisions that have had to be done in the past on other dimensions.",[],{"_key":367,"_type":73,"children":368,"markDefs":372,"style":81},"79d8f4fd9196",[369],{"_key":370,"_type":77,"marks":371,"text":199},"411e3939ce65",[],[],{"_key":374,"_type":73,"children":375,"markDefs":379,"style":81},"b8b2c4b57187",[376],{"_key":377,"_type":77,"marks":378,"text":207},"e85e3426252b",[],[],{"_key":381,"_type":73,"children":382,"markDefs":387,"style":81},"2f35b8634826",[383],{"_key":384,"_type":77,"marks":385,"text":386},"a5c496289406",[],"For sure. It's really good to hear the data matters and make sure we guide things properly and the human still matters. A place I hear on my side a lot, which is totally understandable from engineers, is the craft of code is very important to people. And so when I allow an agent to do it, they may not do it exactly as I want because they're not following the pattern exactly as I'd like. Are the patterns in the code craft, in your opinion, just as important as well? Or should we take a step back and say, \"Maybe that doesn't matter as much as it used to?\"",[],{"_key":389,"_type":73,"children":390,"markDefs":394,"style":81},"b5531ff54424",[391],{"_key":392,"_type":77,"marks":393,"text":199},"a158a8b1145c",[],[],{"_key":396,"_type":73,"children":397,"markDefs":401,"style":81},"af8824f836e0",[398],{"_key":399,"_type":77,"marks":400,"text":252},"417160793719",[],[],{"_key":403,"_type":73,"children":404,"markDefs":409,"style":81},"540cc0d6b4f8",[405],{"_key":406,"_type":77,"marks":407,"text":408},"800919a3f3c7",[],"Yeah, I mean even when you look to the pre-agentic development, it mattered less what language you're coding in. I mean, it mattered to a certain degree, but what really mattered was do you understand the business problem? Are you building a sound architecture? Do you have the operational excellence to scale? And so what ended up happening was because you had to do a lot of manual coding, you maybe spent 80% of your time coding 20% on these other things, as opposed to now you can actually spend more of your time making sure you're getting to the right outcomes.",[],{"_key":411,"_type":73,"children":412,"markDefs":417,"style":81},"e569280fdaeb",[413],{"_key":414,"_type":77,"marks":415,"text":416},"037b9dfa6f52",[],"So the way I think about this is the value just kind of moves now towards making sure that you're using your judgment on how to guide the agents. You're also making sure that you're reviewing the work that agents are doing in the appropriate manner. For example, I coded something, the agent built a thousand tests for me, and then I had another agent critique those tests and I found out those tests were actually not very good and I had to kind of improve on them. So it still required my judgment. It's just that I was doing less coding as part of that and more designing and orchestrating. And really the way I think about it is every individual contributor now becomes a team lead of agents.",[],{"_key":419,"_type":73,"children":420,"markDefs":424,"style":81},"097eb5d8d051",[421],{"_key":422,"_type":77,"marks":423,"text":199},"04c2604a25b9",[],[],{"_key":426,"_type":73,"children":427,"markDefs":431,"style":81},"a685dd9e7493",[428],{"_key":429,"_type":77,"marks":430,"text":207},"e891677eb664",[],[],{"_key":433,"_type":73,"children":434,"markDefs":439,"style":81},"05d3523b55af",[435],{"_key":436,"_type":77,"marks":437,"text":438},"8a17d2f99642",[],"Interesting. I think that's a really, really good position to think about things. And I really like the idea of a team lead of agents. How do you see the scope of the knowledge a person needs to have in order to do that work? Because when I think a team lead, you're talking about a senior person. How do we make sure people have those skills? Is there a pipeline problem that we're going to end up running into? Is there a skills problem?",[],{"_key":441,"_type":73,"children":442,"markDefs":446,"style":81},"6ec3a889cfdf",[443],{"_key":444,"_type":77,"marks":445,"text":199},"1787fc602355",[],[],{"_key":448,"_type":73,"children":449,"markDefs":453,"style":81},"8dc147e70c4a",[450],{"_key":451,"_type":77,"marks":452,"text":252},"6ef074677bdc",[],[],{"_key":455,"_type":73,"children":456,"markDefs":461,"style":81},"5b2a20c373df",[457],{"_key":458,"_type":77,"marks":459,"text":460},"d9d443a1db38",[],"I think it's going to resolve itself because I think what's going to happen is even as you think about kids going to college, doing a computer science degree and so on, how we learn computer science is also going to change. Of course, it's critical for folks to have judgment around how a system is built, how a system runs, how to scale. So a lot of these things are going to be the same. But if you think about it, they could potentially take on university projects that are much more complex and a greater scale with agents than if that were hand coded now. So I think what's going to naturally happen is the folks coming out of college are already going to gain that superpower as they go through college, and they're already going to be conditioned to be the team lead of agents. So I definitely think that that's just going to be a natural progression of how things work. It's not that we're not going to need new entrants to the workforce coming out of computer science degrees.",[],{"_key":463,"_type":73,"children":464,"markDefs":468,"style":81},"977fcd65b7e6",[465],{"_key":466,"_type":77,"marks":467,"text":199},"c02fd6ef0b5f",[],[],{"_key":470,"_type":73,"children":471,"markDefs":475,"style":81},"94dbe5e5783b",[472],{"_key":473,"_type":77,"marks":474,"text":207},"958f0bbcd6e1",[],[],{"_key":477,"_type":73,"children":478,"markDefs":483,"style":81},"2775ee309d5b",[479],{"_key":480,"_type":77,"marks":481,"text":482},"2322bbd1329a",[],"Yeah, I really agree with that very heavily. I think I was on a podcast to myself and actually did an interview about interviewing techniques. And I said one of the biggest changes that we're going to have to really look at is it's not so much that you solve some abstract problem very well. I want to hear about reasoning around it and I want to understand how would you orchestrate that problem at a grander scale? And that's hard.",[],{"_key":485,"_type":73,"children":486,"markDefs":490,"style":81},"2799e04e72ba",[487],{"_key":488,"_type":77,"marks":489,"text":199},"52c286f210a0",[],[],{"_key":492,"_type":73,"children":493,"markDefs":497,"style":81},"b07b7f49096b",[494],{"_key":495,"_type":77,"marks":496,"text":252},"fefb8fd9398e",[],[],{"_key":499,"_type":73,"children":500,"markDefs":505,"style":81},"7cde8973f1ab",[501],{"_key":502,"_type":77,"marks":503,"text":504},"93e71bc48227",[],"Yeah. By the way, we're changing our interview process. So it's not going to be about having an engineer come and build the quick sort by hand and us looking at their code. It's actually giving them an opportunity to use Gemini, to use the agent, give them a problem, see how they're approaching it, how they think, reason through the problem, how they're actually guiding the agent. So I think this is just a natural progression of us having the opportunity to use agents at work.",[],{"_key":507,"_type":73,"children":508,"markDefs":512,"style":81},"e253c6397c1d",[509],{"_key":510,"_type":77,"marks":511,"text":199},"1dc4e1a45867",[],[],{"_key":514,"_type":73,"children":515,"markDefs":519,"style":81},"b6b402b02476",[516],{"_key":517,"_type":77,"marks":518,"text":207},"a5d39a261bf6",[],[],{"_key":521,"_type":73,"children":522,"markDefs":527,"style":81},"07dce705eb99",[523],{"_key":524,"_type":77,"marks":525,"text":526},"33a4c5c7c622",[],"They cannot agree more. And I think for me, it also reveals one of the fundamental things I keep seeing in interviews is someone who's got aptitude, they're willing to try and learn. They have an energy. You can actually see them solving the problem and you get to understand their problem space design. It's really exciting as opposed to, \"Yeah, okay, great. Here's the 20th quick sort I've done.\" Like, \"Okay. Great.\"",[],{"_key":529,"_type":73,"children":530,"markDefs":534,"style":81},"a54b62cf2e07",[531],{"_key":532,"_type":77,"marks":533,"text":199},"792d54d8c2de",[],[],{"_key":536,"_type":73,"children":537,"markDefs":541,"style":81},"68302d11731b",[538],{"_key":539,"_type":77,"marks":540,"text":252},"1be41176efc1",[],[],{"_key":543,"_type":73,"children":544,"markDefs":549,"style":81},"3f6b34284821",[545],{"_key":546,"_type":77,"marks":547,"text":548},"73ca7ac7bd5d",[],"Exactly.",[],{"_key":551,"_type":73,"children":552,"markDefs":556,"style":81},"e38882e39c33",[553],{"_key":554,"_type":77,"marks":555,"text":199},"334236cbd611",[],[],{"_key":558,"_type":73,"children":559,"markDefs":563,"style":81},"aeb54181a9b5",[560],{"_key":561,"_type":77,"marks":562,"text":207},"72f4196ca7ba",[],[],{"_key":565,"_type":73,"children":566,"markDefs":571,"style":81},"09c0418aea96",[567],{"_key":568,"_type":77,"marks":569,"text":570},"a7da0f0a1c4f",[],"Yeah, not fun. So maybe taking a step back, you talked about the PHP work you've done a little bit and how we try to get people who can't code to code again. I'm not sure if you're aware, and I'm sure you are, but I'll say I was reading a quote by Linus Torvalds recently where he was saying, \"Hey, engineers are...\" I'm paraphrasing it. He was like, \"Hey, engineers are concerned that they don't understand the code they're writing.\" And his response was, \"They never did.\" Have you heard that recently? Does that mean anything to you to hear that, \"You know what? You just never did really know the code you wrote.\" Does it matter?",[],{"_key":573,"_type":73,"children":574,"markDefs":578,"style":81},"d0233f9f1401",[575],{"_key":576,"_type":77,"marks":577,"text":199},"a6b85646c271",[],[],{"_key":580,"_type":73,"children":581,"markDefs":585,"style":81},"e6a0e5cc421a",[582],{"_key":583,"_type":77,"marks":584,"text":252},"1c5c88403233",[],[],{"_key":587,"_type":73,"children":588,"markDefs":593,"style":81},"551107450536",[589],{"_key":590,"_type":77,"marks":591,"text":592},"b74386845339",[],"Yeah. I'd say most engineers who've worked on large scale projects never really had an ability to understand 100% of the code anyway. They kind of understand the subset of code that they were working on, maybe some of the adjacent modules, but maybe Linus understands the full Linux kernel end-to-end. But I would say in most enterprise settings, you usually don't have a single engineer who knows every line of code. So I think to a certain degree, that's been the environment.",[],{"_key":595,"_type":73,"children":596,"markDefs":601,"style":81},"86a58f169f2f",[597],{"_key":598,"_type":77,"marks":599,"text":600},"e9b68eed829c",[],"I actually think now what's interesting is using agents to get into a code base you're not familiar with and really understanding it, navigating it and understanding where you can make a change, I think that's actually a really good opportunity now to a certain degree that's going to drive higher quality. I still think there are going to be plenty of reasons and situations where you also have human code review. I mean, at Google, we have both human and agent code review. We require both pretty much. So we do want that human judgment also, but we're definitely seeing that there's a class of bugs that sometimes agents can find easier because they can go and look at a much broader set of the code base than a human ever could.",[],{"_key":603,"_type":73,"children":604,"markDefs":608,"style":81},"0ea7dc19242c",[605],{"_key":606,"_type":77,"marks":607,"text":199},"470105e282ef",[],[],{"_key":610,"_type":73,"children":611,"markDefs":615,"style":81},"39276c7a3679",[612],{"_key":613,"_type":77,"marks":614,"text":207},"35fd2cf1fae9",[],[],{"_key":617,"_type":73,"children":618,"markDefs":623,"style":81},"81bc3d61b8bb",[619],{"_key":620,"_type":77,"marks":621,"text":622},"54621a455761",[],"Yeah, that's really interesting. It makes me think about how do we make sure that we spend the right amount of human work on the code review or evaluating what's being changed versus the agent? I mean, personally, I vibe coded some stuff myself and it's actually enjoyable, but you run out of brain capacity if I'm just reviewing multiple hundred lines of PRs all the time. And if I switch between contexts, it's even harder. How do you all approach that when you're trying to say, \"Listen, the human does need to review certain things?\" How do you make sure they have the right capacity to do it?",[],{"_key":625,"_type":73,"children":626,"markDefs":630,"style":81},"076a6e3d620a",[627],{"_key":628,"_type":77,"marks":629,"text":199},"c08f0b9b88f2",[],[],{"_key":632,"_type":73,"children":633,"markDefs":637,"style":81},"1b37e50493bc",[634],{"_key":635,"_type":77,"marks":636,"text":252},"0dbaf7c436b4",[],[],{"_key":639,"_type":73,"children":640,"markDefs":645,"style":81},"01310d19bab3",[641],{"_key":642,"_type":77,"marks":643,"text":644},"fdcae79d2607",[],"Look, I think like anything at work, no one reviews everything 100% of the time. So you kind of use your judgment on where do I need a review? Where do I not need a review? This is the whole question around where do you need a human in the loop and where can you actually use an autonomous agent? So I think there's a spectrum of situations. For example, if you're working on a very sensitive piece of code that may be security token oriented or so on, you probably want a human expert to also take a look at it. But for example, if it's changes in CSS and HTML and you're ready or also on Python scripts and you're also using your agent to do a security review, there's actually a good chance that you're going to find more issues using the agent than if you ask some human to come and do a full review.",[],{"_key":647,"_type":73,"children":648,"markDefs":653,"style":81},"3d6cbba8deab",[649],{"_key":650,"_type":77,"marks":651,"text":652},"7dc48663d619",[],"So I think this is all a question of risk management and some of it is perception. If you think about a Waymo, humans are 80% less likely to get into a hurtful accident with Waymo than taking an Uber. But still the majority of folks still feel a lot more comfortable having a human driver in the seat. I send my daughter in Waymo because I know the facts. So I think there's also that element to it, which is the alternative is not 100% bulletproof either. So you have to basically use your judgment.",[],{"_key":655,"_type":73,"children":656,"markDefs":660,"style":81},"d516749ea0c0",[657],{"_key":658,"_type":77,"marks":659,"text":199},"2bb82d94de97",[],[],{"_key":662,"_type":73,"children":663,"markDefs":667,"style":81},"81b8a3e05d55",[664],{"_key":665,"_type":77,"marks":666,"text":207},"566032f655ff",[],[],{"_key":669,"_type":73,"children":670,"markDefs":675,"style":81},"40dc836cb1b4",[671],{"_key":672,"_type":77,"marks":673,"text":674},"07448d06f77f",[],"Yeah, I was just reading that article recently where there was some questions about how Waymo would continue in certain areas. And I'm like, yeah, human car crashes are a thing.",[],{"_key":677,"_type":73,"children":678,"markDefs":682,"style":81},"a88392d3d1e1",[679],{"_key":680,"_type":77,"marks":681,"text":199},"1fe4637053f3",[],[],{"_key":684,"_type":73,"children":685,"markDefs":689,"style":81},"65cbf1726db4",[686],{"_key":687,"_type":77,"marks":688,"text":252},"c02d4689dbe7",[],[],{"_key":691,"_type":73,"children":692,"markDefs":696,"style":81},"f8d68eac78ee",[693],{"_key":694,"_type":77,"marks":695,"text":548},"41fe8f35bd36",[],[],{"_key":698,"_type":73,"children":699,"markDefs":703,"style":81},"181406a4c09f",[700],{"_key":701,"_type":77,"marks":702,"text":199},"7c21901fd242",[],[],{"_key":705,"_type":73,"children":706,"markDefs":710,"style":81},"99a4ac8fab8d",[707],{"_key":708,"_type":77,"marks":709,"text":207},"0830cb03fda6",[],[],{"_key":712,"_type":73,"children":713,"markDefs":718,"style":81},"6ce5ffbf8429",[714],{"_key":715,"_type":77,"marks":716,"text":717},"b66b55ac0d14",[],"So yeah, we also had that same discussion internally at Stack when we were adopting AI, and it's a valid concern. How do I know the AI is going to create bulletproof code or the best code? And the first step is to take a step back and say, \"Well, we write all the time. Did we make mistakes?\" And it sure has happened. And I love the idea of that risk impact kind of vibe. You have to know where you might even have a high risk, but what do you care if the impact's low? But if it's security, impact's high, let's be very cautious about that.",[],{"_key":720,"_type":73,"children":721,"markDefs":725,"style":81},"d3c48c7cc01b",[722],{"_key":723,"_type":77,"marks":724,"text":199},"c72bdfc76e0d",[],[],{"_key":727,"_type":73,"children":728,"markDefs":732,"style":81},"351c6576cee4",[729],{"_key":730,"_type":77,"marks":731,"text":252},"1051b452fe1c",[],[],{"_key":734,"_type":73,"children":735,"markDefs":740,"style":81},"494889966f2e",[736],{"_key":737,"_type":77,"marks":738,"text":739},"1e6c8210c856",[],"Yeah. And then security is not only about the code, it's also about how it's deployed, how it's managed. You have multiple levels of defense. And then also using agents actually on the defense side is another piece that we're seeing increasingly going into production.",[],{"_key":742,"_type":73,"children":743,"markDefs":747,"style":81},"e9e8fc4312cb",[744],{"_key":745,"_type":77,"marks":746,"text":199},"e26b088f196f",[],[],{"_key":749,"_type":73,"children":750,"markDefs":754,"style":81},"f39fe20b1f95",[751],{"_key":752,"_type":77,"marks":753,"text":207},"43cf393b101e",[],[],{"_key":756,"_type":73,"children":757,"markDefs":762,"style":81},"7ec0f17b1a2e",[758],{"_key":759,"_type":77,"marks":760,"text":761},"2c560f9b91d1",[],"Yeah, for sure. It's always an arms race when it comes into defending. So totally hear that. Can you tell me a little bit about how maybe practical examples you have at Google if you do or can share, how many agents are you running, practically speaking? If I'm a developer, a team developer working on a project, are agents everywhere at Google? Am I just a harnessed engineer? What's it like to work there now?",[],{"_key":764,"_type":73,"children":765,"markDefs":769,"style":81},"c191e042e317",[766],{"_key":767,"_type":77,"marks":768,"text":199},"1ed0e68564db",[],[],{"_key":771,"_type":73,"children":772,"markDefs":776,"style":81},"220efeee9b24",[773],{"_key":774,"_type":77,"marks":775,"text":252},"963e2e032ae8",[],[],{"_key":778,"_type":73,"children":779,"markDefs":784,"style":81},"d29d592b3f70",[780],{"_key":781,"_type":77,"marks":782,"text":783},"42aa2265e9cb",[],"Yeah. I mean, of course, just being an AI-first company, we make AI super accessible to our staff, whether this is on the coding side or just on Gemini enterprise for work-related items like calendaring or emails or so on support. So we do make AI available to all our employees. But to be frank, that's not that much different than what an enterprise can do today. They can get all these capabilities also. I think where we're finding a lot of success is really going and building these more autonomous agents with AI internally. So for example, our site reliability engineering, we're using agents, we're using agents in customer support. We're using agents on the security side and making sure that we are both identifying and remediating vulnerabilities proactively and much, much quicker than in the past. So there's a ton that we're doing to use agents to really both reduce the toil on humans, but also speed up the outcomes.",[],{"_key":786,"_type":73,"children":787,"markDefs":791,"style":81},"b8b47e674ec4",[788],{"_key":789,"_type":77,"marks":790,"text":199},"cddb339a0b6b",[],[],{"_key":793,"_type":73,"children":794,"markDefs":798,"style":81},"942f6851b1c3",[795],{"_key":796,"_type":77,"marks":797,"text":207},"42ac37366b21",[],[],{"_key":800,"_type":73,"children":801,"markDefs":806,"style":81},"cadbb15b6499",[802],{"_key":803,"_type":77,"marks":804,"text":805},"d6bb2fc07e1d",[],"That's really, really cool to hear. I think there's just so many places you can approach it that we don't want to do that work and there's other work we'd rather be doing. So I totally get that. When you think about reducing that toil, what are some of the places you still see gaps that we need to, \"Hey, there are problems still in a certain space that we're not really solving with AI anytime soon, and we need to invest in that.\"",[],{"_key":808,"_type":73,"children":809,"markDefs":813,"style":81},"0cbb109c223a",[810],{"_key":811,"_type":77,"marks":812,"text":199},"6fca209d7273",[],[],{"_key":815,"_type":73,"children":816,"markDefs":820,"style":81},"b037d56430d8",[817],{"_key":818,"_type":77,"marks":819,"text":252},"5565f5a75157",[],[],{"_key":822,"_type":73,"children":823,"markDefs":828,"style":81},"88073567b55d",[824],{"_key":825,"_type":77,"marks":826,"text":827},"d6e4ecadfcee",[],"Look, I think if you look at the models, whether that's Gemini or Opus or other models, I think models are in a very good place today to actually automate a big percentage of enterprise workflows. And so the way I think about it is we don't have as much of a model problem anymore today. I think one of the challenges we have, and that's where I'm putting a lot of effort, is okay, but in order to have autonomous agents that can take autonomous action with a high level of trust and autonomy, you need to understand your data escape, sorry, your data stage. You need to understand the knowledge, how it relates to these workflows. And so what we're seeing right now is a big part of the focus is on how do I activate 100% of my data for AI? Traditionally, you'd only activate a very small amount of data for analytics.",[],{"_key":830,"_type":73,"children":831,"markDefs":836,"style":81},"f20633a81f66",[832],{"_key":833,"_type":77,"marks":834,"text":835},"7b017703074c",[],"That was kind of a subset of structured data, but now it's all structured data, also the operational data. It's unstructured data, whether it's sitting in object storage or elsewhere, images, PDFs, contracts, and then making sure you have enough of an understanding of the semantics and the relationship of the data to business problems to drive outcomes. So that's really where we're putting a lot of focus, which is of course the models will keep on getting better, but I think one of the key bottlenecks right now is how do we actually make sure data can be activated with AI in the best possible way to drive the best outcomes. And when I think about best outcomes, it's both highest level of quality and trust and reducing token usage and cost.",[],{"_key":838,"_type":73,"children":839,"markDefs":843,"style":81},"9437c33804a8",[840],{"_key":841,"_type":77,"marks":842,"text":199},"0bd67465f2a4",[],[],{"_key":845,"_type":73,"children":846,"markDefs":850,"style":81},"82ccc8024435",[847],{"_key":848,"_type":77,"marks":849,"text":207},"fa3ac9f81f20",[],[],{"_key":852,"_type":73,"children":853,"markDefs":858,"style":81},"8d0bc4623349",[854],{"_key":855,"_type":77,"marks":856,"text":857},"edac7c71927c",[],"Yeah, that's really powerful to think about all the data that we have and we just never connected. I think about the days where I did a lot of software work in connecting external systems through APIs to pull data in, and it was never the glamorous work. And today I feel vindicated. Bringing data together was actually important, but it's still in its silos. So getting it out's really hard. Where's the biggest challenge right now in connecting some of this data at these enterprise level scales? Because one of the biggest things we see is enterprise scale means an enterprise grade permissioning and access. Is that one of your biggest areas of focus, making sure that the access is also there or is it something else?",[],{"_key":860,"_type":73,"children":861,"markDefs":865,"style":81},"93010a90c829",[862],{"_key":863,"_type":77,"marks":864,"text":199},"aba01054161f",[],[],{"_key":867,"_type":73,"children":868,"markDefs":872,"style":81},"f0cabb12ed41",[869],{"_key":870,"_type":77,"marks":871,"text":252},"931361651818",[],[],{"_key":874,"_type":73,"children":875,"markDefs":880,"style":81},"05f215487af7",[876],{"_key":877,"_type":77,"marks":878,"text":879},"b5fb7fd7ed91",[],"Yeah, no, absolutely. So first of all, I think there's an opportunity now to activate all of this data using agents and using AI. So in the past, this has been a very difficult problem because it was mostly driven by data stewards. You couldn't hire thousands of data stewards to make sure all your data could be discovered. So now we can hire agents. So we're actually building agentic experiences to discover where your data sits, how it relates to each other. We know that for most of our customers, their data sitting in multiple clouds are also on premises. So we can't just think about GCP. We also have to think about data that may be sitting on AWS or Azure or on-premises. What's changed now is though the primitives we have to solve for that are so much better. For example, we can go cross-cloud with cross-cloud interconnects in single digit millisecond latencies, fully secure off the internet at pretty low cost.",[],{"_key":882,"_type":73,"children":883,"markDefs":888,"style":81},"044262605e6b",[884],{"_key":885,"_type":77,"marks":886,"text":887},"592d35065544",[],"So the reality is breaking down those walled gardens, getting to all your data is much more feasible now than it was in the past. We are able to automate security and governance so that when you have a certain kind of fine-grained access control in a different environment and now you want to access the data from an agent, that we can honor that permissioning. So there's just a ton of opportunity right now, not only because of AI, but also because of how the infrastructure has evolved that we're actually able to break down those wall gardens. We call this our borderless lake house. It's all about borderless where we can activate data no matter where it sits and really make it easier for customers to have agents that can actually reason and act on all their data.",[],{"_key":890,"_type":73,"children":891,"markDefs":895,"style":81},"419b8e3f0dba",[892],{"_key":893,"_type":77,"marks":894,"text":199},"158dbc1e3268",[],[],{"_key":897,"_type":73,"children":898,"markDefs":902,"style":81},"fc9edbba5d38",[899],{"_key":900,"_type":77,"marks":901,"text":207},"b23b23804b7e",[],[],{"_key":904,"_type":73,"children":905,"markDefs":910,"style":81},"fee501725e3a",[906],{"_key":907,"_type":77,"marks":908,"text":909},"743783ca2e9e",[],"And Google, I really like this whole breaking down the walls idea. It's something I've wanted to do for a long time. And I'm thinking to myself, when I look at the market, one of the things I see also happening that's sort of frictionful to your statement is this now we're seem to be moving to more usage base drive from people. And we're also getting to more walled gardens where, \"Hey, you want to get out, the API is no longer free.\" How are you dealing with that? Do you see that as a threat or do you see that as, \"Hey, this is the cost of moving in this direction?\"",[],{"_key":912,"_type":73,"children":913,"markDefs":917,"style":81},"243a29fd7c7d",[914],{"_key":915,"_type":77,"marks":916,"text":199},"9a996eae24b5",[],[],{"_key":919,"_type":73,"children":920,"markDefs":924,"style":81},"458b2e251353",[921],{"_key":922,"_type":77,"marks":923,"text":252},"9bd72b4d5277",[],[],{"_key":926,"_type":73,"children":927,"markDefs":932,"style":81},"04d679d62ec1",[928],{"_key":929,"_type":77,"marks":930,"text":931},"e00303fa7a02",[],"So I think one thing that's been good around the industry is we do have open data formats like Iceberg. I think what we're seeing is vendors are realizing and are getting pressure from customers to make all their data available in these open formats. And then of course also with these cross-cloud interconnects, you can get to that data without per gigabyte egress costs. You can just pay for the bandwidth. That's why I was talking about the primitives. I think you're seeing things evolve in the industry that basically allow, first of all, vendors like us, we've always been very committed to open. So for us, that's kind of a given. But even some of the more traditional vendors, especially the SaaS vendors have realized that customers require them to give access to their data in a way that is zero copy and cost-effective.",[],{"_key":934,"_type":73,"children":935,"markDefs":940,"style":81},"8db3fe476db2",[936],{"_key":937,"_type":77,"marks":938,"text":939},"4f0339e9079a",[],"And so that is happening pretty much across the industry. So for example, our borderless Lakehouse works with SAP, it works with Workday, with ServiceNow, with Salesforce. And so we are seeing those walled gardens come down. You'll probably still have some laggards, but my guess is that customers will put enough pressure on those laggards that they will also have to embrace openness, make sure that customers can use their data the way they want.",[],{"_key":942,"_type":73,"children":943,"markDefs":947,"style":81},"df428fbd0b21",[944],{"_key":945,"_type":77,"marks":946,"text":199},"bc06f809b725",[],[],{"_key":949,"_type":73,"children":950,"markDefs":954,"style":81},"2bf2ce2e641a",[951],{"_key":952,"_type":77,"marks":953,"text":207},"a19d41cad55c",[],[],{"_key":956,"_type":73,"children":957,"markDefs":962,"style":81},"d7ddd5709705",[958],{"_key":959,"_type":77,"marks":960,"text":961},"0c0638b7d3ff",[],"Yeah. I highly would echo a positive note on that. I think that's very true. It's the initial fire touch of like, \"Oh gosh, AI is going to take everything.\" And it's like, \"Well, it's scary at first. Let's calm down. And then I think the market is going to realize, yeah, the openness still matters.\" In fact, Google recently published a new open storage LLM Wiki for your agents. Is that not correct?",[],{"_key":964,"_type":73,"children":965,"markDefs":969,"style":81},"5633833a60df",[966],{"_key":967,"_type":77,"marks":968,"text":199},"2c6c5bbba5f1",[],[],{"_key":971,"_type":73,"children":972,"markDefs":976,"style":81},"3b362a4353d4",[973],{"_key":974,"_type":77,"marks":975,"text":252},"ba69bd40b7a9",[],[],{"_key":978,"_type":73,"children":979,"markDefs":984,"style":81},"4dab3317c66f",[980],{"_key":981,"_type":77,"marks":982,"text":983},"1715003ddd75",[],"Yeah, we published open knowledge format, and that's all about openness. It's like, \"Okay, how do I capture knowledge in a way that then can be used, whether it's by our platform or other platforms?\" So we've seen quite a lot of vendors and customers excited about it, embracing it. That's really our goal is to drive that openness, make sure customers really have full control of their data. And you can think about this almost similar to skills that you would have around your tools and platform. This is kind of the knowledge you have. And that could be knowledge, both that's personal knowledge that kind of defines you and how the agent should reason on your behalf, or it could be any general knowledge around your business or other things.",[],{"_key":986,"_type":73,"children":987,"markDefs":991,"style":81},"880a87be5c4f",[988],{"_key":989,"_type":77,"marks":990,"text":199},"d5b8c7575424",[],[],{"_key":993,"_type":73,"children":994,"markDefs":998,"style":81},"59af300ffc91",[995],{"_key":996,"_type":77,"marks":997,"text":207},"669557dc803a",[],[],{"_key":1000,"_type":73,"children":1001,"markDefs":1006,"style":81},"c14a817306ee",[1002],{"_key":1003,"_type":77,"marks":1004,"text":1005},"6db48834363e",[],"Sure, for sure. I'm old enough, and we will not get into age here, but I was thinking when Google published that, I remember Google was a big pioneer on the OWL format, which was the ontology language format, which I though had legs. Not sure it really took off that it should have, but I love it. I think if you can connect knowledge like that into those ontologies and all the formats, you can discover things you didn't know before. And that's the beauty of connective knowledge.",[],{"_key":1008,"_type":73,"children":1009,"markDefs":1013,"style":81},"a0506e4123fc",[1010],{"_key":1011,"_type":77,"marks":1012,"text":199},"d221fafff12e",[],[],{"_key":1015,"_type":73,"children":1016,"markDefs":1020,"style":81},"25df179684d8",[1017],{"_key":1018,"_type":77,"marks":1019,"text":252},"b7750859b8f2",[],[],{"_key":1022,"_type":73,"children":1023,"markDefs":1028,"style":81},"521a5fd89547",[1024],{"_key":1025,"_type":77,"marks":1026,"text":1027},"da5bb9aa525e",[],"No, exactly. But I think the challenge you have without is it was not trivial for people to use. And so as a result, you really got companies and users investing in it that really had a material enough business problem to make that level of investment. I think what's exciting now is you have agents. So even if you wanted to build an OWL-based ontology now and so on, you can actually infer a lot of that with agents. So a lot of how we're thinking about knowledge, and we have this initiative called knowledge catalog, is how do we actually move that semantic ontology building from being human-driven to being agent-driven? Because once you need to do this for 100% of your data state, you're not going to be able to throw enough people on the problem. And I think this is where AI has a huge benefit.",[],{"_key":1030,"_type":73,"children":1031,"markDefs":1036,"style":81},"6fec514d4456",[1032],{"_key":1033,"_type":77,"marks":1034,"text":1035},"04afe4950f8d",[],"AI is actually very good at dealing with messiness and trying to understand relationships to a degree that sometimes is hard for humans to figure out. And so I think there's just this huge opportunity here where I talk about reducing the toil, reducing the toil of actually defining that ontology, and then just put the human into more of the curation mode than inspector mode. So we're working on the whole experience where yes, the human can still be in the loop, but the human is in the loop in a manner that is high value to the human versus having to do a lot of the undifferentiated heavy lifting.",[],{"_key":1038,"_type":73,"children":1039,"markDefs":1043,"style":81},"31303a99ccc0",[1040],{"_key":1041,"_type":77,"marks":1042,"text":199},"80cdb8078bbb",[],[],{"_key":1045,"_type":73,"children":1046,"markDefs":1050,"style":81},"64b15a341ef4",[1047],{"_key":1048,"_type":77,"marks":1049,"text":207},"5e9261f27bad",[],[],{"_key":1052,"_type":73,"children":1053,"markDefs":1058,"style":81},"1e32e5fb35a1",[1054],{"_key":1055,"_type":77,"marks":1056,"text":1057},"9334251425d3",[],"Yeah, that's really cool. I love thinking about how the ontology so can be self-generating and the curation matters more than anything because there's a lot of stuff stored in all of our heads that we don't even realize, and that's where we can really affect a lot of change.",[],{"_key":1060,"_type":73,"children":1061,"markDefs":1065,"style":81},"f52d2723c239",[1062],{"_key":1063,"_type":77,"marks":1064,"text":199},"fbda1b6e3efb",[],[],{"_key":1067,"_type":73,"children":1068,"markDefs":1072,"style":81},"086e9f1aa810",[1069],{"_key":1070,"_type":77,"marks":1071,"text":183},"fcceac56958d",[],[],{"_key":1074,"_type":73,"children":1075,"markDefs":1080,"style":81},"39e1db8a3bd5",[1076],{"_key":1077,"_type":77,"marks":1078,"text":1079},"128448f0c928",[],"Hey folks, it's Eira here. We're going to end here for now and release the second half of this episode in a couple of weeks. You've been listening to Peter O'Connor of Stack Overflow and Andi Gutmans of Google on Leaders of Code. Thanks for listening and we will catch you next time. Bye-bye.",[],true,"2026\u002F08\u002F20","Andi Gutmans, head of Agentic Data Cloud at Google and co-creator of PHP, joins Leaders of Code to talk about why agentic development feels less like a break from the past and more like the next chapter of the same story. This is part one of a two-part conversation.",{"_type":57,"alt":1085,"asset":1086},"Leaders of Code, The Stack Overflow Podcast.",{"_ref":1087,"_type":60},"image-89a7c761862499db37bf759db9607b85625d3d19-3840x2160-png","2026-08-20T07:40:00.000Z",{"_type":10,"current":1090},"rethinking-judgment-review-andi-gutmans",[1092,1101,1108,1125,1132,1137,1141,1149],{"_createdAt":1093,"_id":1094,"_rev":1095,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1097,"slug":1098,"title":1100},"2025-01-30T16:17:57Z","9888a9d0-d16e-4267-bf9c-ded395f8d660","0Mkb5FQxU5FAKeDVsB7oOC","blogTag","2025-01-30T16:18:02Z",{"_type":10,"current":1099},"leaders-of-code","Leaders of code",{"_createdAt":1102,"_id":1103,"_rev":1104,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1102,"slug":1105,"title":1107},"2023-05-23T16:43:21Z","wp-tagcat-podcast","9HpbCsT2tq0xwozQfkc4ih",{"current":1106},"podcast","The Stack Overflow Podcast",{"_createdAt":1109,"_id":1110,"_rev":1111,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1112,"description":1113,"slug":1122,"title":1124},"2024-09-12T10:47:51Z","1dc92c86-0099-46d4-ba5b-41e5697d43c0","6PK1Gm0YEnAcvtXN32g6bL","2024-09-17T14:27:36Z",[1114],{"_key":1115,"_type":73,"children":1116,"markDefs":1121,"style":81},"1ddad854068f",[1117],{"_key":1118,"_type":77,"marks":1119,"text":1120},"312bffce4f510",[],"Articles on business, SaaS, and the software that powers organizations.",[],{"_type":10,"current":1123},"business","Business Hub",{"_createdAt":1102,"_id":1126,"_rev":1127,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1128,"slug":1129,"title":1131},"wp-tagcat-ai","fpDTFQqIDjNJIbHDKPBGpV","2025-01-30T16:19:01Z",{"current":1130},"ai","AI",{"_createdAt":1102,"_id":1133,"_rev":1104,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1102,"slug":1134,"title":1136},"wp-tagcat-engineering-leadership",{"current":1135},"engineering-leadership","engineering leadership",{"_createdAt":1102,"_id":1138,"_rev":1104,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1102,"slug":1139,"title":1140},"wp-tagcat-php",{"current":1140},"php",{"_createdAt":1142,"_id":1143,"_rev":1144,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1145,"slug":1146,"title":1148},"2025-04-15T23:21:03Z","d89bbb9f-0bbc-447e-a206-743d60072ac8","JfoWZSLIstjPUpetdZSBcn","2025-04-15T23:21:07Z",{"_type":10,"current":1147},"ai-agents","AI agents",{"_createdAt":1150,"_id":1151,"_rev":1152,"_type":1096,"_updatedAt":1153,"slug":1154,"title":1156},"2025-03-13T21:04:14Z","31b00780-2ccb-4728-94b5-5d49523b724c","NFSu21L50a7MuzwvSjbUx8","2025-03-13T21:04:21Z",{"_type":10,"current":1155},"agentic-ai","agentic AI","From PHP to team lead of agents: rethinking judgment, review, and data with Google's Andi Gutmans (Part 1)",[1159,1165,1171,1177],{"_id":1160,"publishedAt":1161,"slug":1162,"sponsored":12,"title":1164},"07d4e201-1f96-4b57-a3a5-fdcf9c723ece","2026-08-20T19:05:40.063Z",{"_type":10,"current":1163},"ai-won-t-replace-project-managers-but-it-is-reshaping-how-work-gets-done","AI Won't Replace Project Managers, But It is Reshaping How Work Gets Done",{"_id":1166,"publishedAt":1167,"slug":1168,"sponsored":12,"title":1170},"ed3e57af-3814-4e23-a270-d234eb2b4d82","2026-08-20T18:43:39.700Z",{"_type":10,"current":1169},"quantum-augmented-applications-integrating-quantum-subroutines-into-classical-software-stacks","Quantum-Augmented Applications: Integrating Quantum Subroutines into Classical Software Stacks",{"_id":1172,"publishedAt":1173,"slug":1174,"sponsored":12,"title":1176},"489890c7-c873-4e1a-b74b-4ccc75349223","2026-08-14T18:00:00.000Z",{"_type":10,"current":1175},"ndq-ai-context-architecture-build-buy","No Dumb Questions: What is AI context architecture? Why not just build your own?",{"_id":1178,"publishedAt":1179,"slug":1180,"sponsored":12,"title":1182},"8e30b6eb-54d0-479e-bab3-7139a9b37dc6","2026-07-31T14:08:31.737Z",{"_type":10,"current":1181},"dispatches-from-o-reilly-the-best-risk-mitigation-strategy-in-data-a-single-source-of-truth","Dispatches from O'Reilly: The best risk mitigation strategy in data? A single source of truth",{"data":1184,"sourceMap":-1},{"count":1185,"lastTimestamp":12},0]